MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
When thousands of pagers and walkie-talkies exploded throughout Lebanon last week, it was a success for the planners of the audacious attack. Was it also a war crime, with dozens of people killed and some 3,000 people injured? Well, that type of question, along with all of the ensuing questions about whether to prosecute, how to prosecute, they fall to our next guest. He is the lead prosecutor for the International Criminal Court, which was set up two decades ago to investigate war crimes and crimes against humanity. Karim Khan joins us from our studios in New York. Mr. Khan, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
KARIM KHAN: Mary Louise, thank you for the honor of having me on your show.
KELLY: I do want to get into the broader war unfolding in the Middle East. But let’s just start with these pager explosions and that question I just posed. Based on what you know now, does this look like a war crime?
KHAN: Well, I need to be very disciplined, Mary Louise, in terms of what I say. We don’t have jurisdiction in relation to Lebanon. Lebanon is not a state party, unlike Palestine. We’re focusing on situations that are clearly, we say, within our jurisdiction.
KELLY: So let me turn you to a conflict where you do have jurisdiction. The ICC applied, as you know, back in May, for arrest warrants against leaders of Hamas, also against Israeli leaders – Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. On Friday, Israel’s foreign ministry filed a petition to appeal the warrant, and the foreign ministry says that you failed, and I quote, “to provide Israel with the opportunity to exercise its right to investigate by itself the claims raised by the prosecutor before proceeding.” So I’ll put that to you. Did you fail to provide Israel with that opportunity?
KHAN: Well, no is the short answer. I’ve said it repeatedly, publicly, that we’re investigating, that also – not only the crimes alleged against Hamas but also that Israel and leaders in Israel have responsibilities to comply with international law and that I was investigating, and there was no applications by Israel since 2021 until today. But we’ll deal with the filings in the normal way. It would only be right to respond first to the judges.
KELLY: May I invite you to respond to criticism from the United States? President Biden has called your application for warrants against Israeli leaders outrageous – his word – and also said – and this is his quote – “whatever this prosecutor might imply, ” this prosecutor being you, “there is no equivalence – none – between Israel and Hamas.” Karim Khan, are you implying equivalence between Israel and Hamas?
KHAN: You know, U.S. values make it clear that every individual has rights. The United States doesn’t say Hispanics or Blacks or whites or people from the East Coast or West Coast have different rights. I say the same thing. As an officer of the court, the umbrella of the law should apply equally. And I have just as much compassion as – you know, for Kfir Bibas, who was a 10-month-old snatched from kibbutz that I visited and taken by Hamas, as I do for children 10 months old or younger or older that have also died, you know, in Gaza.
KELLY: One more on Hamas. Since you’ve applied for warrants for top Hamas officials, Hamas has killed at least six Israeli hostages that we know of. Is the message getting through that they are on the hook for war crimes?
KHAN: Well, I hope it is, but the point is one doesn’t see a particular change because it’s an abomination. So, yes, at the moment it seems that people are not taking heed. They’re not complying with the law. But that doesn’t mean the fact that people are breaking the law that we sit idle and sit on our hands. I think that we have an obligation to be a voice for those victims in – around – well, in Israel – but around the world because what is taking place affect humanity. These are crimes against humanity, as well as war crimes that we allege.
KELLY: Briefly, I’d like to discuss Sudan. You addressed the U.N. Security Council last month regarding the civil war there and said the ICC is not and never has been a silver bullet, that to solve crises of the world it requires the support of states. What support do you need? What international support do you need to do your job in Sudan?
KHAN: After the horrors of the Second World War, we gave a promise of never again. How do we build that confidence if there’s not a proper solution in Darfur? At the moment, people are being hunted down and killed because of the color of their skin and because of a sense of impunity that has built up over 20 years. We don’t have a police force. We don’t have military. We need states to live up to their responsibilities – that’s, first and foremost, Sudan.
And then also, African Union, the United Nations and powerful states, including the United States of America, the European Union – everybody should care that the allegations are so horrendous of famine, of starvation, of rape on a big scale. We need that support in terms of the enforcement, and we haven’t seen it.
KELLY: Karim Khan is the lead prosecutor for the International Criminal Court. He was speaking with us from the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York. Thank you.
KHAN: Thank you so much.
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